John said:
So please tell me, how can there be a God when there is so much evil in the world?
There is evil in the world because of the Fall. In the beginning, God gave the first humans (Adam and Eve) the choice of obedience and perfection, or disobedience and punishment; the choice of good or bad, righteousness or wickedness. (You may read Genesis chapter 3 if you want all the details, and if you don’t have a Bible you can look it up online easy as pie.) Since Adam and Eve failed the test and chose disobedience, we were left with the punishment – sickness, death, hard/futile work, pain, evil, and sin. That is why there is evil in the world, and it is no fault of God’s, for it was man’s choice.
-Erica
I really don’t know, trust, or care what the bible says. Just give me a logical answer as to how there could be a god in a world so full of evil.
I know you don’t, but in debating GOD, it is a little bit hard to avoid the Bible, don’t you think? I thought my response answered your question, for it showed how perfection was lost in the first place. Were you, instead, meaning why does God let evil CONTINUE in the world, and not intervene to prevent it? Clarification would be nice so that we can answer your question more precisely.
I think he means how can there be a good god in a world so full of evil. Where is this god of yours. I sure don’t see him.
Might I suggest that you dare to look beyond the world? You certainly will not see God if the world is all you look at.
I observe that you recognize that there is such a thing as evil. Why? How? There could be no good if there were no evil. So you obviously believe in the existence of good. If evil is the absence of good, where did the good come from? If your heart recognizes the difference between good and evil, why does it do so? Why, if there is no spirit world, do you even have a soul? (And how could a soul possibly evolve!)
I challenge you to look beyond the surface.
I agree, where is god in this dieing world?
Your imaginary god is evil. Just look at the things in the fairytale bible like Noah’s flood. Only an evil character like your god could cause a world wide flood that kills everyone but a handful. Even Hitler can’t top that one! ( and Hitler was a christian! )
Evil is repulsive, is it not? Just isn’t right, is it? In fact, evil cannot abide in the presence of God (Who has no trace of evil as you suggested). The fact that all men are sinners (and therefore evil), means that we all deserve to die – even me. The death penalty is not an exhibition of evil, but of justice. The people killed in the flood were not innocents, but those in rebellion to their Authority. Those who were sinners and had not accepted forgiveness from their evil.
Hitler, on the other hand (who was no Christian by any stretch of the imagination), did not execute judgment, nor have authority to do so. God, being the overall Authority and reader-of-hearts has the position and duty of judging mankind based on faith or lack thereof. Man, on the other hand, not only has no ability to read hearts, but is created as an equal to his fellow man and has no authority to judge heart issues, but only criminal issues.
Well, god hardly seems good if he floods the whole world because they are all “sinners”. Just because god created the first TWO humans and then punished them and EVERY HUMAN SINCE for an arbitrary offence, doesnt give him the right to rule us or control our lives.
Besides, most “sins” (the seven deadliest, for instance) are not even bad by any stretch of the imagination, they are all natural and every human WILL sin if they are this generalised. But that is the point, isnt it? Make sins so broad that everyone WILL sin, and feel as though they must serve God to make up for it.
People like you who think people who sin DESERVE to die are created through this horrid system. Fundamentalists like you who accept or ignore the many inconsistencies in the bible and follow your imaginary friend blindly.
Read this to see what i mean by “inconsistencies”.
http://englishatheist.org/indexr.shtml
Ps: not sure if the link will work, but it lists the many horrible things the bible says and that is just the tip of the iceberg.
why will no-one answer me? This makes me feel lonely, and outcast. :C
I apologize that no one has undertaken to reply to you, and for any offense that may have given. I typically prefer to leave responses to the others, due to time constraints. Seeing as they have not replied, I will make an attempt.
Since it seems that the use of the Bible is somewhat in dispute, I will suggest that we leave that aside for the moment and consider things in themselves.
If I make something, am I not in complete control over it? Do we not have laws that ensure that this is the case? My control over what I make is entirely reasonable. God made man. As Creator, He would in the nature of things have control over His creation. It would therefore be in no wise unreasonable for Him to demand the service of His creation. It is also not unreasonable for me to destroy a project of mine gone awry. Sin in a human is a parallel case. Therefore, it is just for God to destroy a sinful man.
Does that make sense or have I only further confused the issue?
As per Athanasius’ reply, God is the ultimate creator and thus, in control over everything. In this case, we, as humans, cannot create. If I have a child, am I it’s creator? If I am, then I should have complete control over this individual, as per the above reply. This is, of course, faulty. If I’m not, then I can’t create much. Can I say that I’m a creator if I grow a cloned plant, or even an animal? In any case, I am not in complete control over these things. Anything living we cannot control completely, and anything inanimate has no will or thought, so it is no longer a question of control but of function, like using a rock as a tool. and even then we can still run into problems (like a faulty watch)!
This comes down to a basic logical problem. (I am not trying to disprove God here, but hear me out).
1. Is God omnipotent? (I know views on this point vary depending on the branch of religion or the individual)
a. no: this is problematic since God is the “one god”, the highest level of power. If he’s not all powerful, and the devil does exist outside of Him, then he’s not omnipotent, which raises the question of whether there could be a higher, truly omnipotent force.
b. yes: this also creates a problem, for in this case, there can be no evil outside of God, i.e. God is both good and evil, and so the devil is also a facet of God. This still does not disprove God, however it means that God knows and sees all, past, present and future, which eliminates the notion of free will (and Adam and Eve’s mistake) since God would know the course mankind would take. In this case, it is absurd to ask people to “choose to do the right thing”, for then God has already decided each of our fates, whether in this world or the next, since the beginning of time.
Thoughts?
Omnipotent is not the same as containing everything: God is everywhere and knows all, but that does not mean that everything is God (I for example, am not God, clearly, but God knows me). And then there’s the question of free will: on this I would argue that God HAS given us such free will, and I would point out that knowing what we are going to do is not the same as making the decision for us, and hence not “predetermined” but “preknown”.
Here’s a simple answer…if you looking for a logical answer
You yourself agree that Objective morals and values exist, right? you stated that evil exists right?
you yourself proved that God exits.
Where else can objective moral values and duties come from but god?
society? i don’t think so
if we are(according to evolutio) just animals….how did objective morals and values come to pass?
God is the only logical answer to this problem.
If there is bad, then there’s good. simple. and vice-versa. God loves us so much he gave us the option to choose sin. He loves us so much that he gives us both otptiones. Good and Evil. that is why there is evil.
If you want to prove that objective moral values and duties come elswhere than god, then you can prove God doesn’t exist. But as long as you cannot find a reasonable base for those, God is the only plausible answer for where objective moral values and duties come from
How do we know that objective moral values exist?Don’t we have to make an assumption with out any evidential basis in order to believe objective moral values exist? I am free to believe in good or evil, but I am also free to believe in the flying spaghetti monster. What basis do I have to believe in Objective Good and Evil? Is it a stronger basis than the Flying spaghetti monster? How so?